Is Anyone Else Experiencing Issues With Winter Blend?

"Nibbles" (nibbles) 11/12/2013 at 09:39 • Filed to: I'm feeling gassy

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I've been driving the Focus lately, and since the change over to winter blend I've noticed lack of power and some detonation. Not a whole lot of detonation, but it's evident at low RPMs. For giggles, I asked the wife if she has been experiencing anything.

"Oh, so that's why my truck sounds like a diesel!" She said, after I explained what detonation is. Great.

Now I know the plural of anecdote isn't data, but we fill up from separate stations. I fill at a Valero and she either hits the nearest Shell or Sam's Club. We both noticed detonation, rather noticeable at low RPMs, since the switch over. I've now run 1.5 tanks of mid grade through the Focus, and have noticed less detonation. No new data on the pickup yet (as she barely drives it). Has anyone else experienced any issues with winter blend gas this year?

Party-vi > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 09:45

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Your car should detect detonation and retard timing accordingly. Or you can use higher-octane gas for the time being.

Nibbles > Party-vi 11/12/2013 at 09:49

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That's what we're doing. The Focus is handling it decently well (moving to midgrade has helped) but the Dakota doesn't have any of that fancy timing control, and has apparently been struggling a good bit with the winter blend. I'm wondering if anyone else has had issue with fuel this winter.

dinobot666 > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 09:49

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Yes I have. There is also some new EPA mandate in place that says low octane fuels must contain at least 10% ethanol, and both my cars run like total shit on anything with that garbage in it.

I've taken to putting 91 octane premium, with no ethanol in it and both cars are running great again, and their combined fuel economy is way up. Fuck this ethanol crap.

Sir Halffast > Party-vi 11/12/2013 at 09:51

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Heh. You said retard.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 09:51

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I remember borrowing my cousins focus for a few weeks and it had trouble at idle, I don't think it was detonation though.

Nibbles > dinobot666 11/12/2013 at 09:53

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I may have to start doing this. Ethanol can be run in the Focus (I guess? I'ts not FFV certified, but I thought all cars 2001+ were designed to handle the corrosiveness?), but fuck the Dakota and my SPG are way too old to have that corrosive shit pulsing through their veins. Especially with this E15 bullshit starting.

So I wonder. I know they have to post signs, and I see them all the time - Fuel may contain Ethanol - but how far is it going to go until they have to post certified ethanol numbers at the pump? I'd like to know how much potential damage is being put on my old cars.

I swear to god if the government's answer is "go buy a newer car" I'm moving to Canada.

dinobot666 > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 09:56

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I like how proponents of ethanol say things like "We're just giving consumers a choice when it comes to renewable fuels" while completely ignoring the fact that I don't have a choice when it comes to buying 87 octane fuel without ethanol blended into it.

At least gas prices are a bit lower right now, which makes buying 91 octane premium a bit cheaper. I also figure that it balances out, since my fuel economy goes up considerably when I'm not using a 10% ethanol blend.

CalzoneGolem > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:04

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The Bullmobile is running fine. Just losing a couple mpgs.

Casper > dinobot666 11/12/2013 at 10:04

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There aren't many places where you can buy 87 without ethanol... generally it's 90+ (92 to just over 100 around here) that's offered ethanol free. They really don't care about economy cars and the ethanol, but the performance vehicles made enough valid complaining to get it offered in many areas. You might have to step up to premium fuels if you want to avoid the ethanol invasion.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:06

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I had one slow down this morning, but its my first issue. By that I mean power dropping out on acceleration, was fine the rest of my hour ride though.

I haven't even lost any MPG somehow.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:10

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#detonationlol

(DD: Diesel, and the Landy I'll be running little enough to put mid-octane with lead substitute. Also, it's designed to run on shitty gas - whiskey would probably work)

Party-vi > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:13

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What year is the Dakota? Modern vehicles (read: OBDII vehicles) have knock-sensing capabilities built in to adjust for detonation. It would be odd that it doesn't.

Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs > Casper 11/12/2013 at 10:21

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Here in Grand Rapids, MI, it is practically impossible to find ethanol free fuel, unless you are willing to drive way out of your way. Also, in Michigan, gas stations are not required to post the ethanol content in any way, shape or form.

Nibbles > Party-vi 11/12/2013 at 10:24

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It's a 1995, pre OBDII. No knock sensors on this block.

Nibbles > Yowen - not necessarily not spaghetti and meatballs 11/12/2013 at 10:25

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Hopefully that changes in the near future. They're introducing more fuels that are damaging to older vehicles, and should be required to post said information.

Nibbles > CalzoneGolem 11/12/2013 at 10:25

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The Focus went from 31 average to 26. The Dak lost one MPG.

Cajun Ginger > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:26

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Slightly off topic but do you guys wives have no interest in how things work? Specifically cars.

Party-vi > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:28

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Ah I see. Hmm. Maybe some octane booster for the truck and drive that to and from work for a few days?

Casper > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:29

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That sucks. We have quite a few ethanol free stations around here, but then again we also have generally better fuel than most places (92 octane is the standard premium, several local stations carry 100+).

Nibbles > Cajun Ginger 11/12/2013 at 10:32

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My wife is learning. She just started driving the truck a couple weeks ago (manual FTW) and is making excellent progress. She watches and asks questions when I'm performing maintenance or working on the Saab.

I can't say she has no interest, she never had the chance to learn about cars until I came along. It's a good tradeoff. She teaches me about horses, I teach her about horsepower.

davedave1111 > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:35

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You're getting detonation in a Focus? Then there's something wrong with the electronics and/or sensors. All (or at least almost all) ECUs for at least twenty years have automatically adjusted the timing to prevent detonation. It's kind of the point of an ECU.

I get the impression from a very quick google that the knock-sensor on (some?) Focuses may be something of a weak-point.;

Nibbles > davedave1111 11/12/2013 at 10:37

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I think the fuel is just that bad, it's going outside of the system's parameters.

Regardless I will be performing a full system check this weekend. Upping the octane level has pretty much quelled it in both vehicles.

Cajun Ginger > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:39

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That's cool. :)

Usually when we do something on one of the cars we take turns. Especially if it's something symmetrical. Like he'll do one side of brakes and I'll do the other. That way we can both get hands on.

Horses? Shudder. I prefer my vehicles to be metal, not organic. I have an admittedly irrational fear of horses because a donkey bit me once and yes I know they're different animals.

davedave1111 > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:41

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Well, anything's possible. I don't know enough about the Focus to say, but I'd be surprised if anything on regular sale is that bad, or that the Focus's adaptation range is so small.

Are you getting a continuous knock, or just a once-every-now-and-again on idle? ECUs generally use a feedback loop to control timing, so it may have to knock once or twice before it detects it and retards the timing. Again, though, I know nothing about the Focus engines.

CalzoneGolem > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:45

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Geez, do you always get gas from the same place?

Nibbles > CalzoneGolem 11/12/2013 at 10:47

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I do. Admittedly, some of it may be because it's time for a tune-up. It just hit 80k and sadly I haven't had the funds to perform the maintenance yet. I'm hoping that I can use this economy loss to fuel (heh) my argument to get maintenance funds cleared by the financial advisor (wife).

Nibbles > Party-vi 11/12/2013 at 10:48

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I may do that. Also there is a station down the street from work that sells no-ethanol gas, so I may just start taking the truck to work on days that it needs fill ups.

CalzoneGolem > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:48

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Good luck. You might also want to try getting gas from another place.

Nibbles > davedave1111 11/12/2013 at 10:49

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Previously, it would happen rarely. In the past month and a half or so, it's been on a regular basis.

UserNotFound > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 10:52

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What year Focus are we talking about? The MK3 has direct injection and a 12:1 compression ratio so, while the fancy electronics allow you to run regular in it, it is happier with premium.

Winter fuel has butane in it to increase the vapor pressure in colder temperatures and maintain the volatility to the desired level, so I could see a higher compression motor like the MK3 focus not being happy with lower-octane fuel which already has a lower energy requirement to ignite.

This paper, while published by the renewable fuels foundations, actually has a lot of really good technical information about gasoline.

ethanolrfa.3cdn.net/dd9e74ce1c454a97cc_rbm6bdgh3.pdf

edit: you'll have to copy the link in to the address bar, and it should auto-download the pdf.

Nibbles > UserNotFound 11/12/2013 at 10:59

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2007 MK1.5, with the 2.0 PZEV Duratec 20E. 10:1 compression ratio. Poorly performing engine.

UserNotFound > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 11:03

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Well, either way, the winter additives could be what are causing the issue, since they basically make the fuel easier to ignite.

davedave1111 > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 11:11

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I meant, does it knock for a few seconds (or longer), or just once or twice before stopping, then do it again at some point later? The former sounds like a problem, the latter more like how anti-knock systems often work.

Nibbles > davedave1111 11/12/2013 at 11:43

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The former. It was knocking a good bit before I switched.

davedave1111 > Nibbles 11/12/2013 at 18:46

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I'm no expert, but that doesn't sound completely normal. I'd a) ask on a Focus forum and b) get a multimeter and test all the sensors. Shouldn't take too long, as long as you can find the standard resistances online somewhere.